tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post114892925791157440..comments2023-09-28T15:43:24.855+02:00Comments on Vilhelm Konnander's weblog: Estonia: Stalemate in Russian RelationsVilhelm Konnanderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09167606906861836286noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-40985471867764608512007-05-29T15:43:00.000+02:002007-05-29T15:43:00.000+02:00Thanks Vilhelm for your prompt reply,I think that ...Thanks Vilhelm for your prompt reply,<BR/><BR/>I think that the socio-economic factors are somewhat overestimated in the international media. As I remember my PhD studies and work in Stockholm during 1993-1999, swedes were proud to declare that there were no poor people in Sweden. Well, it seems to me that we are not far from that situation any more. Definitely you can find some examples, and Ida-Virumaa is one of those where environment is deteriorated and the average living age of especially men is about 7 years shorter than in other districts, not because of the environment, but because of the stress, accompanied partly by alcoholism and drug abuse. However, average income in Ida-Virumaa is not lower than in other regions (of course, in Tallinn it is much higher than in other parts). Also, the unemployment rate is very low and it is very easy to find a job. A good construction worker earns more than an university professor and who has a will, there is no problem getting a nice job, it does not even matter if you cannot speak Estonian. We import skilled workforce from Poland and Ukraine already. I teach at the university and Russians are very good students, many of them much harder working than Estonians. We do have courses also taught in Russian. So I think the socio-economic difference is to a large extent a myth. If you see it differently from outside, maybe you can bring some examples, but these should not represent subjective views of the extremists. <BR/><BR/>What comes to the Center party, it is possible that there will be a divide. Centrists are even declaring that recent events might create a real Russian political party. But may-be having that party could be positive for Estonian development, because there will be an honest political dialogue between the voters and the parties. Up to now it has been only on the level of 'additional 500 kroons for pension', 'keeping the price of water under control' and other purely economical and populistic promises...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-42771929925712529222007-05-29T15:19:00.000+02:002007-05-29T15:19:00.000+02:00Dear anonymous,Thank you for your comment and your...Dear anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your comment and your personal reflections on the subject. Your story is quite familiar to me and I have heard similar thoughts from many Estonian friends over the year. <BR/><BR/>Of course, there is a rift between Russians and Estonians in Estonia, which will live on for generations to come. <BR/><BR/>However, one must also look at socio-economic fatctors. A large proportion of people from the FSU - viz. not only Russians - that moved to Estonia after WWII came there as manual labour. <BR/><BR/>It would be interesting to e.g. compare the level of education between Estonians and Russians. Just look at where most Russians live in Estonia. Let's face it: Many Russians are working-class people, who have great difficulties integrating due to lack of education and socio-economic situation. <BR/><BR/>Then, there are also Russians who have become citizens and probably theoretically know more about Estonia than some Estonians.<BR/><BR/>Even though you and other Estonians feel this way, I consequently think that the main issue is not ethnicity but socio-economic.<BR/><BR/>Finally, you mention Savisaar and the Center Party. What will become of them, now as Russia has abanoned them during the crisis over the Bronze Soldier?<BR/><BR/>Yours,<BR/><BR/>VilhelmVilhelm Konnanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04506899921990227704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-89199223686972902072007-05-29T14:49:00.000+02:002007-05-29T14:49:00.000+02:00Hi Vilhelm,your view is interesting, as is your he...Hi Vilhelm,<BR/><BR/>your view is interesting, as is your heading: stalemate in chess means end of the game in draw and a possibility to start a new one. I grew up in Tallinn and all my childhood was completely brainwashed by Soviet WW II military movies. As a young boy, I asked one of my relatives who was a history student: Why some apes became Germans? So big was the cultivated hate, carried to the population through military movies. At the same time, we never played with Russian boys. Why? Because it was so before and is so now... Still, feeling the real hate appeared to me on a compulsory service in Soviet Army between 1983-1985. I was called a fascist, the main reason being that I was writing with German letters. Also, there where some legends that some Estonians appeared to kill Russians during WW II. This hate is still there with no possibilities for discussion, it is continuously cultivated. I remember visiting Sweden first time in 1988. Estonia was then declaring its economic independence, not political. The events of Baku where milica beat locals with spades had just happened. We had a young Russian in our conference group who said: do not even think about political independence - you will get beaten up by spades... After Estonia became independent, I got my university education and PhD in UK and Sweden, I have also worked in Italy, so am globalized. However, I see that the relations between Estonians and Russians in Tallinn are exactly the same as in 1980's. As I look at it, no political power so far has succeeded in integration. The Centrist party - getting the votes of both Estonian elderly people and Russians - enjoyed having the support from 2 politically very differently orientated population groups and did not tackle the problem of integration, neither did other political parties. The result is that the process of integration is still not happening and, as much as I see it, even the real in-depth analysis has not been done...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-59997242289694975652007-04-28T20:16:00.000+02:002007-04-28T20:16:00.000+02:00The principal problem with Estonia (I live in Ida ...The principal problem with Estonia (I live in Ida Virumaa), that this country is full of people that are continually being wrong footed. They kick up a fight with Russia at precisely the time when they can earn most by working with it, - having a mastery of the russian language and being in the EU is a huge advantage. They look to the Eu to save them, when they are incapable of having a fiscal policy that meets any of the criteria for convergence. They want to live off outsourcing IT when the work is rapidly moving to cheaper places such as India. <BR/>They want tourism, but the country actually offers very little to attract foreign tourists apart from Tallinn,(unless you count sex tourism!) and has antiquated customs and immigration habits making it impossible for foreigners to come here easily and invest. <BR/>In fact the situation is today so bad, that when the EU money runs out in about 12months time, the country will HAVE to start paying its way. As one of the major advantages of the country is it's 2 borders with Russia, but steadfastly tries to torpedo all plans to expand them (Eg. Look at Sillamae port and the modernisation of Narva bridge), then when the crunch comes, it's going to be really NASTY.<BR/>It only needs Russia to kill the plans to transfreight goods from China over the transsib, and redirect them to St Petersburg, and strangle at birth the expanding border trade at Narva, (as it is currently doing), and Eastern Estonia will really have no future and nothing but criminality as the down side (and it's a REALLY serious one).<BR/>One of the wiser decisions of the central government was to relocate most of the ciminal elements to Ida Virumaa (!), and the rate of rise of HIV is now the highest in the world, consistent with prostituion and high intravenous drug use.<BR/>So, if the current spat with Russia is supposed to be progress, then I'm a dutchman!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-1157914961708843962006-09-10T21:02:00.000+02:002006-09-10T21:02:00.000+02:00Dear Lars,I am neither pro-Russian nor anti-Russia...Dear Lars,<BR/><BR/>I am neither pro-Russian nor anti-Russian. I am pro sovereignty for all nations regardless of size, and appreciate the constant balance between realism and ethics in international relations.<BR/><BR/>"Dans le meilleur des mondes" - in the best of all worlds - your vision should be realised: return of territory, war damages, acknowledgement of terror. <BR/><BR/>I am sorry this is not the way international relations are enacted. Instead it is a case of "il faut cultiver son jardin" - one has to make the best of what one has.<BR/><BR/>History should be remembered and the sufferings of the Estonian people under the Soviet and Nazi yoke is and should remain nurtured in Estonia and internationally as a crime against individuals, a people and a state. <BR/><BR/>However, this does not mean that one should only look back. For better or for worse, Estonia has to build a future, which excludes a repetition of history.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, relations with Russia is a reality that has to be dealt with no matter what one feels and thinks about the Eastern neighbour. <BR/><BR/>Personally, I have little sympathy with Russian policy towards Estonia, as I believe it leads nowhere - to the avail of Russia and Estonia alike. However, Estonia should also not be lured into itself become engulfed by counterproductive policies. <BR/><BR/>I am sorry to say so, but the living must come before the dead when safeguarding Estonia's future. This is something today's Estonians owe to the memories of those who sacrificed their lives to preserve not only the freedom of their nation, but the mere existence of an Estonian nation.<BR/><BR/>As for my own feelings about the issue, I might well symphatize with a lot of what you say, even if I do not see Estonians and Russians as naturally opposing forces. Also, I cannot see to what good a stubbornly tough attitude would lead. That does not mean that I believe in leniency in face of impending oppression or great wrongs. I only claim that - as a small nation - one must carefully pick one's fights and principles are too important to be squandered by minor issues.<BR/><BR/>Concerning the bronze soldier, I cannot understand why Estonian authorities did not remove it when all other statues were removed after August 1991. Now it seems too late, and I cannot imagine the mayor of Tallinn making such a decision, as he would be too scared to lose Russian votes in the next election. I understand that people might react vehemently against the statue, but Estonia and its politicians made a mistake that they now will have to pay for. Protests and actions now are too late and only serve to play into the hands of forces in Estonia and Russia that would prefer a development to the detriment of the country. <BR/><BR/>By the way, I believe that the person who modelled for the statue was a famous Estonian Olympic athlete from the 1950s.<BR/><BR/>On the positive side, as for monuments, it is obvious from what you write that now Estonians forge their own history in terms of erecting statues in memory of times past.<BR/><BR/>Yours,<BR/><BR/>VilhelmVilhelm Konnanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04506899921990227704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-1157910203469076252006-09-10T19:43:00.000+02:002006-09-10T19:43:00.000+02:00Dear Martin,First of all, thank you for your prais...Dear Martin,<BR/><BR/>First of all, thank you for your praise, which I am not sure that I deserve.<BR/><BR/>As for Estonia's national mixture, the question is how one defines a nation. Historically, there have been a lot of Russians in Estonia and they form a natural part of the nation. All Russians that were Estonian nationals before 1940 and their descendants also automatically became citizens after 1991. <BR/><BR/>So, Russians are not naturally a phenomenon foreign to Estonian society. Russian culture and life in Estonia will probably continue, not least because it historically has been a concomitant part of Estonian society. Cultural integration is therefore far-fetched in the foreseeable future. <BR/><BR/>This does not mean that Russians and Estonians will not integrate. Inter-marriage is not uncommon and Russians are increasingly learning Estonian - even in Russian dominated parts of the country. <BR/><BR/>Multicultural countries are not so rare internationally, and one has only to think of Belgium and Switzerland to see how people of different cultures and langugaes live along each other naturally.<BR/><BR/>This does not mean that Russians should be given minority rights. This is Estonia's decision. Also, it is difficult to determine what should constitute a Russian minority. Russian-speaking people might as well come from Ukraine, Belarus or Kazakhstan. Are they Russians? What is important is that all citizens have equal rights and equal opportunities, and this is an area which Estonia will struggle with for decades to come.<BR/><BR/>Yours,<BR/><BR/>VilhelmVilhelm Konnanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04506899921990227704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-1155892971211974192006-08-18T11:22:00.000+02:002006-08-18T11:22:00.000+02:00Interesting view on Estonian Russian relationships...Interesting view on Estonian Russian relationships, however I sense a pro-russian author or at least that the author knows that Russia is a big country with a history of not 'giving' back anything, nor admitting wrong doings. Because of this normal Russian behaviour, its better not to take the fight attitude, let the big bear be. In my mind Russia should give back the land they have occupied since 1944. Russia should admit the genocide of the baltic people, the massmurders and large scale terror in the occupied countries. They should in all decensy pay war and occupation damage to the baltic states. But knowing the history of Russia, this will not happen. This is a well known fact and therefor politicians all over dont feel its is worth taking that discussion and knowing that Russia will react to any country supporting any of those claims. Russia has a lot of interesting business opportunities as well.<BR/><BR/>Regarding that Estonian people reacts to have russian monuments to honour the russian soldier is in my mind very understandable, its like having a statue in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv honoring SS or Gestapo. Why not take it away, put it in a museum explaining the terror 'this soldier' is connected to. For Estonians and other baltic people, even the Nazi occupation was better than the russian, to quote Alfred Karmann one of the forestbrothers saying about why staying in the forest fighting Russian occupation for many years, even amputating one arm during the "The difference between them was that the Germans enslaved us and took our land. But the Russians destroyed the Estonian nation. They opposed - and still oppose - Estonian independence." <BR/><BR/>I think this is very much true and has nothing to do with right wing, crazy neo-nazi or whatever extreme people. Its about a nation rising up from the ashes, a people getting back its history and identity.<BR/><BR/>Even if western europe and USA want that these countries history will be forgotten since themselves took part of giving Russia the opportunity and to admit that takes too much guts. I hope that at least Sweden will be strong enough to realize what Russia has done to its neighbouring countries and continue to do. <BR/><BR/>'If you only look backward you are totally blind, if you only look forward then you are blind on one eye'<BR/>A Russian saying<BR/><BR/>In Pärnu there is a installation which portrays a russian armytruck and a Lenin statue, which has been wrapped in black plastic and a rope tied around it. <BR/><BR/>The installation is called 'Forbidden History'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-1155221680624576022006-08-10T16:54:00.000+02:002006-08-10T16:54:00.000+02:00Mr. Konnander,Thank you for writing this, I found ...Mr. Konnander,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for writing this, I found it extremely interesting. I just came back home (to Canada) after spending a year in Tallinn. What I found absolutely amazing is how Tallinn is made up of 2 solitudes - Estonians and Russians. They are like oil and water - it is quite amazing to witness day in and day out. Their cultures, personalities and approach to life are such polar opposites of each other. Do you think they will, one day, become one nation?Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14350862350239770971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-1151084245046869432006-06-23T19:37:00.000+02:002006-06-23T19:37:00.000+02:00Dear Mr. Konnander,I am green with envy at your ar...Dear Mr. Konnander,<BR/><BR/>I am green with envy at your articulate analysis. It is also refreshing to (FINALLY) read something on this topic in English.<BR/><BR/>With regards to what Dmitriy said, I should add that there are other minorities in Estonia (Belarussians are 1 percent, Ukrainians are 2 percent) and neither of those states <BR/>have brought up the citizenship/minority issue as far as I can recall.<BR/><BR/>I also think that the Estonian PM's position on the Bronze Soldier is intended to score points for the 2007 election. <BR/><BR/>Res Publica and Isamaa just merged, and the Reform Party is no doubt looking to pick up whatever voters it can as they reevaluate their allegiences.<BR/><BR/>Again thanks for the post. I look forward to reading more.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-1149074525688078142006-05-31T13:22:00.000+02:002006-05-31T13:22:00.000+02:00Dear Mr Konnander,I have only read the introductor...Dear Mr Konnander,<BR/><BR/>I have only read the introductory part of your message, hoping to read the rest later. But so far:<BR/><BR/>The Riigikogu included the references to the Tartu Peace Treaty (it is relevant to Finland as well as to Estonia) and to the declaration of the Estonian Supreme Soviet on the occupation of Estonia. The references were included into the ratification law, which is internal legal act and is part of the Border Treaty only in the internal legislation, non-binding outside Estonian legal space. <BR/><BR/>With this regard Estonia has sovereign right to do so, especially considering internal declarations by the Gosudarstvennaya Duma, for example a declaration concerning and mentioning several EU Memberstates (including Estonia) made on the extention of the PCA to the New Memberstate. Estonia did not make problem about that declaration and have not stopped the enforcement of this agreement, even though would not agree with the content of such. On the other hand, as mentioned by Mr Ilves, Estonian legislators could have been more smart by including a reference to EU Parliament opinion of May 2005, in which it noted the "50 years of occupation of part of Eastern Europe" by USSR. This would make Russia reject the Border treaty all the same, but would direct the following conflict somewhat elsewhere from Estonia.Estonia in World Media (Rus)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13791711276337826586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-1149046876265949392006-05-31T05:41:00.000+02:002006-05-31T05:41:00.000+02:00Dear Dmitriy,I totally agree with you. I very much...Dear Dmitriy,<BR/><BR/>I totally agree with you. I very much sympathise with the situation of ethnic Russians in above all Central Asia, but this seems a problem of little concern to Moscow. <BR/><BR/>In 1997, when there was a short thaw in Baltic-Russian relations, the CFDP (SVOP) published a report characterising Moscow's policy on these issues as hypocritical. We will have to see if and when such arguments will be allowed to be presented and debated again. <BR/><BR/>As for Estonia and Latvia, the Russian-speaking population in these countries are all the more becoming indifferent to the position of Moscow. Russia is no longer relevant to anything else than media coverage for their everyday existence. Media is one of the few factors that people still cares about what comes out of the Kremlin. <BR/><BR/>In the end though, this will probably prove insufficient to prevent ethnic Russians from forming a common and new Estonian or Latvian identity. Such identity will, of course, be formed as a mixture between the titular population Russians, and in due course turn into new national identities mixing Russian with Estonian and Latvian respectively.<BR/><BR/>Yours,<BR/><BR/>VilhelmVilhelm Konnanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04506899921990227704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19791491.post-1149045122725669912006-05-31T05:12:00.000+02:002006-05-31T05:12:00.000+02:00It's interesting that russian state tv vociferousl...It's interesting that russian state tv vociferously criticises Latvia and Estonia on Russian minority issue, while totally neglecting russian minorities in countries like Tajikistan or Turkmenistan. In Baltic states position of Russian minorities is at least tolerable, while in thess Central Asian countries it is much worse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com